What is the most ethical thing to do be? Meat eater, vegetarian or vegan?
Here a some different Druidic thoughts, how do you feel about it? We would love to know, send your opinion to us via the ethical coordinator.
Cathi Yarrow : I have been vegetarian for most of my life, vegan for a few months. But in the last year I've started eating meat again as a result of some thinking about the local food vs animal rights dilemma. I was fortunate enough to live where the animals I ate were born, reared and taken to slaughter locally. I didn't feel right about continuing to eat foods that are not native to my land, and on which I had to rely for my wellbeing if I continued not to eat meat (many pulses, some nuts, soy products etc). Although I've now moved away I continue to eat meat, locally reared and organic wherever possible. I've also helped to skin and prepare a road-killed deer for food. That brought me very close to the edge where it's uncomfortable, to confront death and blood in return for food, and made me very much more appreciative of all the food I eat. I no longer define my food ethics solely in terms of what I do and don't eat, but rather the ways in which I ask for, give thanks for and honour the life I take to sustain my own - plant, animal or mineral.
Bryn : A significant amount of the UK's farmland cannot support arable, but can be grazed by livestock. If we gave up meat, we would move further from being able to support ourselves as a nation. More dependance on imports means more foodmiles, more pollution. Without livestock, would we use more chemical fertilisers? Currently we waste an obscene amount of the food we produce, which seems the most unethical thing to me.
Autumn: What I eat has such huge ramifications, that when I decide what to eat I also have to decide what matters to me. Wilderness matters to me, mountains and moorlands, places filled with wild spirits, birds and fierce winds, spaces that are empty of people, with mans influence minimal. I love these places. Although I am unwelcome in them and can't be part of them, I can ensure they remain on this island. To farm these wild spaces you need to use animals, little could be grown there. So humans fill these wild places with sheep and cattle; destroying the sanctity of them, preventing trees regenerating, destroying the heathers, trampling ground nesting birds eggs, polluting the streams and eroding the banks. Eating animals takes up too much space, there are over 6 billion of us, our homes alone take up too much valuable habitat space, without us spreading our farming onto wild places so we can eat meat, a luxurious food that we don't have space to produce honourably.
Hrafn : The biggest problem I see in the veggie / meat-eater debate tends to be one of vegetarians telling meat-eaters that they're wrong to eat meat, & meat-eaters moaning about veggies trying to tell them that they shouldn't eat meat & tarring ALL veggies with the same intolerant brush. Live & let live (except for the animals that get eaten of course). I don't eat meat because I don't like the stuff, & don't like the means of production. The latter would leave me happily eating meat if it was organic & free-range, but as I don't like the taste, I don't.
Peace : My decisions on what to eat are based around lots of things from taste to cost, but two things seem more important than any others; How can I do the least environmental damage and the most good? Fairtrade and organic are essential to me, and on a low income I make these affordable by buying from SUMA wholefoods(www.suma.co.uk). I buy local organic foods direct from the farmer; farmers markets and organic veg boxes are cheaper than supermarkets as well as ethically sound! Being well informed about the impacts of what I eat hopefully ensures I minimise the harm I do and can choose food honourably.
Cursuswalker : Omnivore. But kill them quick and keep them well.
Louise : I have recently decided to move my diet away from its reliance on staple crops like wheat, rice and maize because of how much land they require and how the advent of farming changed our ideas about ownership of land, our relationship with the gods and wild places and how agriculture changed the lives of women. I currently feel that a diet based around wildlife friendly tree crops (both domestic and foreign) and local organic fruit, pulses and vegetables is the most honourable way to eat. I don't eat meat because it involves slaughterhouses and raising stock with the intention of killing it for profit, which I don't feel is an honourable way to treat a life, but I would eat wild caught rabbits and deer if I truly needed to.
Hennie : I believe the most ethical thing we can do regarding producing our food is to bring as little toxins as possible to the plants, animals, ours selves and the Earth; so I am definitely in favour of Organic, with a minimum of transport of foods. BUT : if the only way we can feed all of mankind is by means of intensively, so be it in those parts of the world. To be honest I doubt if it makes any difference ; I think climate change, erosion, deforestation, polluting of air, soil, and water have already gone that much out of hand that most of life on Earth as we know it will be extinct in a short while. I am not certain as of this is something to be very ashamed of, having raped our Mother as we have done, or that this is the inevitable course of history.
Red Raven : Recent convert to veggie, don't like the factory farming methods but have done it as an experiment to see what effect it has on my body. Have to say I'm not missing the meat at all, which has surprised me a little.
Asun : I have started eating meat, after a long time! At this moment I really enjoy Dragon sausages. I do feel that is totally normal to be omnivores when we are young, in one way the hole process of work for surviving requires hunting. At least for periods of life. I would suggest though, even eating meat eat lots of vegetables, and perhaps leave one day the body with just water or fruits and take enzimes so the food that is stored on the guts gets consumed as well as giving the body time to get rid off toxines.
Willowwind : Without making a judgement on which is more ethical, people sometimes believe that vegetarianism is more beneficial to the earth in general based on the idea that producing meat is a far greater burden. It is true in general that as one goes up the predatory pyramid, it takes more and more resources to produce less and less. But if you look at production methods, industrial agriculture with its heavy energy inputs and chemical load may lead to eating vegetables and grains whose environmental costs are also high. Much depends on the type of production. It is also possible to raise farm animals in a kindly way and if all slaughter techniques were required to be kosher, this would also diminish the ethical burden. (To be considered kosher, death must occur with a single, instantaneous blow that does not produce suffering. Obviously this ideal is not always realized. From some points of view it would be better not to kill at all, but in truth all organisms die at some point and a "natural" death is not a guarantee against suffering. There are also some studies that indicate that plants respond to threats with alarm so it cannot be categorically stated that harvesting plants causes no harm, even if we infer lesser awareness due to lack of a centralized nervous system.) Philosophically, I wish I preferred vegetables. But I think I must be part cat in that respect. The taste buds have retained a sadly carnivorous bent.
Joanne T : This is always a difficult subject. For me it is simple. I really do not like the taste or the texture of meat so I wouldn't eat it even if I didn't have some ethical feelings too. For me it's also more a matter of not wanting to eat all the hormones and antibiotics they give the animals (at least here in the US) plus the fact they often kill sick animals and process their meat too. Here in the US I have had to come to terms with neighbors that shoot deer, wild turkey etc and fill their freezers with meat for the year. I hated it at first but if they actually eat what they kill I find that easier to deal with than someone who shops at Tescos and has no idea where their meat comes from or how it is processed. I think everyone has to make their own decisions on this although when you look at the stats on how much fuel and energy it takes to produce meat as opposed to grain its hard to argue with the more environmentally friendly option. Hope I don't get flamed for this as I really do respect all opinions on this and would never try to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I think each of us has to be OK with whatever decisions we make.
Aracos : While 3:5 of our Grove are Vegetarians. I remain an unrepentant Omnivore. I enjoy a grilled bison steak as well as a good salad or other veggies. For health reasons we eat far more leafy & green vegetables than we do meat....We only eat the meat of animals that were not factory farmed and not fed antibiotics and growth hormones or those animals that we've hunted ourselves. We try our best also to buy local food (meat or veg) whenever we can as well. We are pretty lucky to have lots of good farms and the excellent Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association local too. It is much more costly to be so selective in our food like this, but as we have no health insurance or coverage, we believe that it pays us back far more than it costs to stay healthy.
Moonwatcher : Surely we should all try and live our lives to the best of our ability however limited that may be? Look after our clan, look after the land as best as we can, treat everyone the way that we like to be treated and above all remember the words Each To Their Own!
Bryn Colvin : Perhaps the most important thing is to hold a considered opinion rather than just going about thoughtlessly doing whatever. There are so many issues to juggle with food - personal dietary needs, health and tastes, food miles, free range/organic, wellbeing of plants/animals/countryside, sustainability, fair trade and so forth. And then there's money, because with ethical food in the shops, the cost goes through the roof. I can't currently buy the kinds of products I want to across the board - the money simply won't go that far, and its not like I have an expensive lifestyle. (No car, no foreign holidays, low energy use household etc). So I buy what I can on the local/fairtraded/organic side. I think there's something wonderful about producing your own food, and having a real relationship with it as a consequence. Fruit picked from the garden, never sprayed with anything, and occasionally with little residents who need removing (I'm an omnivour, but it doesn't stretch that far!).
Red : Im finding that I am having to make a choice in what I eat at the moment
and it is a choice that feels strange and at odds with itself. I feel
deeply inspired at the moment to be quite strict about eating food which
comes entirely from this land and when I do this, i find myself to be so
much more grounded and awake, hearing more deeply the songs and stories of
the ancestors and land, feeling the scarcity on the cold of winter,
finding empathy with my granmothers for the hungry times. Yet eating vegan
and entirely british whilst finding balance and sustainance seems to be
impossible. No rice, millet, quinoa, beans, pulses (except peas), lentils, tofu, soya
milk, soy mince and nuts. No olives, olive oil, chilli's or chocolate. The
more I think about it, the more it seems that it's the imported foods I
eat that are the food's that allow me to sustain a vegan diet yet are the
foods that rely on the oil industry. It got nick and I thinking about what
we would eat if and when the oil runs out, when food becomes scarce and
the reliance on foreign food becomes unsustainable.
So my question is...
' Is it more ethical and sustainable to eat a vegan diet which relies on
the oil industry or a vegetarian diet with small amounts of eggs and dairy
products from locally produced organic sources where one can make
relationship with the creatures?'
'Do you disagree that a balanced vegan diet relies on imported food and
that I am just creating problems for myself?'
Julia Jackdaw : This really got me thinking. Firstly, if pulses were all that were needed to sustain a vegan diet through a UK winter, then you can grow your own dried beans ... borlotti, canelinni, flageolet, haricots and even butter beans ... so those are the pulses sorted out ... oh and we have some native nuts too, so that's good. However ... I was thinking more and more about the actual reality of eating a vegan - or even vegetarian diet here in the UK with food produced here and nowhere else and the questions and conundrums I came up with were:
By eating a vegetarian/vegan diet here in the uk and supplementing with things like lentils, rice, olives, tofu, exotic nuts, etc., in order to make our diets more interesting - at least in the winter - than 365 ways with parsnips .. are we contributing more than we think to the Polar Bear plight? Are we spoiling ourselves to feel better? Are we living on luxury for the sake of our ethics? ..
Our grandmothers and our ancestors before that were probably not vegetarian or vegan, and probably kept their own livestock to see them through the year ... however their societies were not so consumer driven as ours is now, there were no supermarkets, trade was more local, and probably more fair. They probably didn't even know what garlic was, never mind tofu or quinoa ... they would have only consumed what they needed, and their use of meat quite limited, not every day, with certain types being a definite treat and certain other types that are hardly available these days because there is no demand for them in our celebrity chef dictated diets - ie: mutton ..... they would also not have had to be so expert at finding "ethical" food and wastage would have been much less, if any ... On reflection, is this a more sustainable way of life? It IS possible, here in the UK, to be entirely self sufficient .. Is this possible without meat protein? I think it probably is.
Once, TDN was sent an article on hunting and killing native "wild" food - ie: rabbits. BC and I refused to publish it on TDN under "ethics" (or anywhere else for that matter) ... but in the face of this conundrum ... WOULD it be more ethical than eating lentils and tofu?? WHEN there is no oil, I think food might be the least of our problems! I don't think it will be scarce here, because we as a nation are self sufficient - or can be - even if that means that our winter vegetarian diet would be very dull and monotonous. We will most certainly have to find our protein without depending on imports from other lands ... We may have to prepare better, or be more resourceful .. perhaps we will need to make more time (as our ancestors) to do this..
What about trade and fair trade??? If everyone stops buying rice, and grains, olives, tofu products, and chocolate etc., then wont those farmers be losing out on trade .. will they and their communities not suffer? Indigenous farmers rely on their crops for their livelihood .. Would it be a fair and good enough choice to make a definite commitment to seek out the most ethical sources of these products (which we do anyway) and use less of them?? Is it enough to do the absolute best we can? ... by growing as much as we can, having our own chickens, making as much as we need - ie: I never buy jams/pickles/ cakes/biscuits/ pasta etc., because I make them all myself.... and then supplementing, with little (ethical) luxuries when we really NEED them.
In thinking about the meat conundrum .. I wonder if I could eat meat again ... the answer is probably no ... and strangely and ironically, not so much because I couldn't bear the taste and the thought of it (i couldn't), but because it's boring! When I come to think of it (as I type more and more) ... I think most of the food in my household is quite British, even local ... I do eat tofu, I do have soy milk, and I do eat quinoa .. but all of these things, I could probably do without ... I don't eat them very often. I eat avocados, not very often. Olives are a treat, but I really don't think I could live without olive oil or rice or lentils... I try to buy British whenever I can or have to, and am lucky enough to have an extremely good organic farm down the road. I enjoy cooking and being inventive which helps ... If I buy dairy, then it's organic and British. I am trying to get my allotment going ALL year round ... perhaps I'll manage it this coming year.
Susan : Perhaps a place to start answering the question is to look at what we
need in order to live in a healthy way? Protein, for example, I think is something we are told we need way more of than what our bodies truly require, even if we are active and muscular. I just think about breast milk...the perfect food at a time
where we are growing fast, building tissue...it's 3-5% protein, no? I think Americans are regularly told to take in 10-15% and up to 17% is not uncommon.
Another pondering (sorry, the chaos of my mind comes out with these sort of questions...) is part of the problem with veganism being tricky in Britain is the lack of diversity of food grown, so therefore we have to import. Can we do more with wild food as individuals? (Well, not in a city...but what about outside the city?)
Also, I think we are spoiled with diversity...what I expected as 'normal' is beginning to feel extravagant and luxurious....the lines are all shifting, hourly at times right now, so I won't give specifics because I haven't sorted them...yet.
Bobcat : Protein : this is a big one, one that pisses me off so much, and an issue with a growing son who clearly seems to need much more protein than I do. He eats a fraction of the amount that is recommended by omnivorous charts. I don't see him failing on it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would show by now?
Diversity : when I eat raw food, I don't crave diversity. As long as I have a reasonable mix all the time. I always crave far more diversity when I have cooked grains in my diet. More responses later ...
Red : Yes indeed the protein thing pisses me off too and it's not really the protein question that bothers me, possibly it's the variety. My understanding is that the body need to take in tiny amounts of amino acids to create its own protein but it does need the complete spectrum of amino acids. Indeed many vegans are fantastic examples of vegan healthy goodness, and it is not veganism I am questioning in terms of its ability to promote total well-being. But I know that rice, soy milk, olives, olive oil, millet, lentils, nuts and tofu, all form a substantial part of their diets. I am curious to how a healthy vegan might have been achieved by our ancestors 1000 years ago when imported food was not an option or indeed 50 years into the future. I struggle to understand how soya grown by others in a far away place, by often by exploited people and trashed rainforest and shipped on oil is more ethical than say, local eggs or even dairy? Soya feels more and more like coffee or chocolate to me, even organic and fair trade is precious and extravagant. It seems to me that as I try to minimise suffering in my diet, I can see suffering in all of these options, but in using soya instead of eggs the suffering is just transferred to those in other lands.
Bobcat : I would add that our ethics are surely based upon least unnecessary harm, and the willingness to sacrifice ignorance in order to know where that harm is. There have been vegetarians (and vegans) in our history, in our heritage, for many centuries, possibly even thousands of years. I have spent periods eating vegan from British foods, but I don't believe it was 100% (I'm not sure about the oil). It was certainly when David and I had no money, so we didn't use olive oil. I remember our local health store sold field beans and marrowfat peas, really cheap, British local grown. I think it was around the time when I was still eating wheat, and the change away from gluten meant we changed our whole diet. We ate alot of potatoes, not many nuts. I remember I was healthier than another ethical experiment, which was fruitarian. I don't know if I could do it now and be healthy enough: without any British grown grains (gluten), it is hard. If you can eat gluten grains, there is a huge amount of nourishment from British grain. I could do without soya, and when my son is not in the house we barely eat any. A good deal will change when he leaves (no more need for foreign grains), changes I am not convinced would be fair before he does. Yes, there is value in teaching him to eat British, but he does pretty well. He instinctively checks where all food is grown. But (other than foreign grains/pulses) I'll have a go and see how it is possible. We never buy any foreign fruit, apart from the occasional bag of organic French apricots or grapes, the odd Spanish avo or lemon. He was not brought up on foreign fresh fruit and veg, just grains/pulses. Oh ... there is the issue of dried fruit. I don't eat much, but I buy it for the boys. Is it possibly to get dried British fruit? The hardest for me would be lentils, mung beans, and the other small pulses that I sprout. I don't know of British pulses that I can sprout. Ideas? When we ate British pulses, we also ate them cooked.
I struggle with too much cooked food. Vegan, gluten-free and raw, that's hard when cooking for a family. When my son leaves home, life will change so much for us, I'm sure we will start to look at all kinds of new options. As for non-vegan: that's a choice that I can't even consider.
Susan : With year round dried seaweed, stored nuts, dried apples, plums, pears
and berries, sunflower seeds, flax and rape seed oil, I could see how even raw vegan could be possible. Add eggs, pulses and british grains for those that eat them in varying combinations and you are well away! I think the big issue that that troubles me here is that of sustainability. My understanding is that although we can grow enough in these Islands in terms of variety, we cannot be self sufficient in terms of producing enough to feed a population of this size. We do not have the space to dedicate to farming, even if the whole population was vegetarian. I think that one of the things that may well happen when we we can no longer import food in the way we do now, is that people will starve and in some ways maybe this needs to happen for our people to find our own sensible and sustainable levels. I saw an interesting
statistic which said that the last time that Britain was capable of supporting her population without imports was in the 1700's. It seems so wrong that when other folk in the world are already starving, we drain their food resources to ensure our own survival when we are consuming amounts disproportionate to what our lands can provide us with. Even a vegan diet does this, and I agree wtih Julia's point above that this contributes more to the plight of the polar bears than we dare to admit. I feel that eating eggs from my own happy chickens who could fly (or waddle!) away any time they chose and are fed on kitchen scraps HAS to be more sustainable than shipped monoculture lentils or soya. Although there are issues here too about putting money in to communities by buying their produce.
Red : I totally agree with what you have said here, Bobcat. My intention with this
experiment was actually motivated first by the relationship with my food, I guess the oil and the use of it for shipping food and production etc was a secondary albeit important environmental consideration. We spoke on the livivg druidry weekend about how food grown in our own lands, fed by our own rain, our own sun and the soil which holds the stories of our ancestors, nourishes in a way which is beyond the simple nutrients that the food contains. This made so much sense to me and I understood in way which I had not before. I wanted to FEEL how it feels to eat only food from this land, how it changes me and shifts my conciousness (if it does). I feel that I only skimmed much of the ancestor work done in earth and it is with the courage of fire that I make this journey, motivated by new found connection with my grandmothers. I have no way of knowing for sure if what I am doing cuts my 'carbon
footprint' or if the oil I save balances the fair trade ethics. How do we weigh one against the other? It is so personal, I have no cosmic scales to see the balance (although it would be nice to pile it all on and see what comes out!). Our biggest guide is the relationships we are most aware of at any one time. I only know that for now this feels simple, necessary and true. My relationship with the goddess of this land is so bound up in mud, blood and nourishment, that the experiment is also dedication and exploration in my relationship with her. Im sure Nick and I will eat food from other lands again. Even when transporting food becomes more difficult we will trade with others accross the world as ancient civilizations did before us, but perhaps then the true value of this food will be realized in it's rarity and expense. I
agree with some of your arguments, louise, and I'll reply to those below. I certainly don't mean to be fanatical or motivated by fear, just exploring relationship and the possibilities of how we as humans might adapt and flow with the changes that face us and our children.
Bobcat : These issues are good to read. As I said above, David and I have tried so many different ways of eating, looking at different priorities (our health, the land, the human economy, the nonhuman ecosystem), and I feel there is a balance that works, albeit constantly shifting. And it is about relationships, the sensitivity and wakefulness to what is filled with what song. I have in my organic box a mango and an avocado this week (now and then I forget to order and they give me what is in abundance) : Spanish-grown, they are both a surprise to have around. Both like bullets, they seems to be in stasis, the shock of not quite reaching their potential. The mango is ripening though, and is starting to pour out its lush energy, but it still feels odd. The avo is going brown before it is ripening. And I realise what I feel uncomfortable with is that neither avocado or mango are native to Spain. I also had some French grapes, which no doubt use less transport oil than some food driven
here from the far West Country. They have a song that feels strong, that I can understand, in just the same way as the potatoes that are grown locally.
I would encourage those who wish to explore the only-organic, the only-British, the only-vegan, the only-fruit, and so on. Because in doing so, in specialising in our relationships, focusing, we grow more acutely aware of what song is what. But I would explore it because of the value of the songs and relationships. I know that we are in trouble as a species, but we must be careful of acting on fear. Fear is seldom a good guide; its purpose is to make us step back, not to engage. If we allow it to create the pause, then let's make sure that when we step forward it is not with a fear about life-without- oil or some other inevitable crisis. We must step forward with the wonder and openness of sharing the song. There are no rules. If we are to act with perpetually relevant and appropriate ethics, we must acknowledge that every moment sits within a different context, and to make each decision we need to feel first what that context is, and that we do through our listening and interacting with the songs, the intentions, the spirits present. The information we glean, like a herbal or astrology tome, gives us an idea of what the score was in the moment of relationships that have been recorded. It may be different now. We must respond to the immediate, spirit to spirit, soul to soul, awake to what is before and around and within us.
So yes, I'd support the exploration of different foods, absolutely. And I'd support the exploration of different diets. So important and such fun to engage differently and feel the difference. But please, let's be careful of laying down definitives of good and bad.
